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Hugh de Say

circa 1130 - 1190

Father Hugh fitz Osbern
Mother Eustachia de Say
Wife Lucy de Clifford
Children Hugh, Richard, Lucy, Gilbert(?)


Hugh was probably born sometime around 1130 (1), the son of Hugh fitz Osbern and Eustachia de Say (2).

He had an elder brother Osbert (3)(5)(6), who inherited the family lands on their father's death in the late 1130s (7).

He married Lucy, the daughter of Walter de Clifford (8)(9), and they had at least two sons, Hugh (10)(14)(15) and Richard (17), and possibly a third, Gilbert (17). They are also said to have had a daughter Lucy (11).

Following death of his brother Osbern about 1185, Hugh inherited the family estate (10). Hugh himself died in or shortly before 1190 (12) (possibly whilst fighting in Wales (13)).

Followng his death, his widow Lucy married Bartholomew de Mortimer (16)


Brief details of his children:



Sources:

  1. This is a rough estimate based on the known lineage between Richard Scrob and Margaret de Say. The succession of the intermediate generations is known, but the dates of birth are not. I have simply estimated the most likely rough dates of birth for these intermediate generations, using the few known dates of events in their lives as a guide. It is open to modification in the light of further evidence.
    Specifically in Hugh's case: His father died in (or possibly slightly before) 1139, putting Hugh's birth prior to that date, and his elder brother was probably under 21 at the time, meaning Hugh was born no earlier than about 1120.
  2. No document has been found which names Hugh as son of Hugh fitzOsbern directly. However, he can be seen to be the brother of Osbern (3)(5)(6), the eldest son of Hugh fitz Osbern, and like his brother he adopted the name de Say after his mother, Eustachia de Say (4).
  3. Dugdale's "Monasticon", volume 4, page 366, num XIII, sub Godestow Nunnery, conatins an entry which reads:
    Carta Osberti filii Hugonis de una Salina in Wichia.
    [Ex Collect. Rob. Glover nuper Somerset heraldi]
    Sciant præsentes et futuri quod ego Osbertus filius Hugonis dedi etconcessi sactimonialibus de Godestow salinam unam in Wichia, quæ appellatur Vacca, pertinentem ad menerium meum de Wichebalt, pro petitione domini Walteri de Clifford, et pro salute animæ uxoris suæ Marggaretæ, et animæ filiæ suæ Rosamundæ, quarum corpora ibidem requiescunt, et pro salute animæ meæ, &c. Hæc donation facta est assensu domini regis Henrici, et concessu Hugonis fratris mei. Hiis testibus, Waltero de Clifford, Ricardo filio suo, et Lucia filia sua, Willelmo de Hetona, &c.
  4. Dugdale's "Monasticon", volume 6, page 1004, num I, sub Priory of Westwood, conatins an entry which reads:
    Carta Regis Henrici Secundi.
    Henricus Dei gratia rex Angliæ et dux Nor. et Aquit. et comes Andeg. achiepiscopis, &c. salutem. Sciatis me concessisse, quod in loco de Westwud in Wogorniensi comitatu sit conventus sanctimonialium de ecclisia Fontis Ebrausi, et quod in pace, libere et honorifice, integre, et plenarie, habeant omnia sua tenementa quæ Osbertus filius Hogonis, et Eustachia de Say mater sua dederunt in elemosinas ecclisie Fontis Ebraudi, scilicet Westwudam ad assartandam, et ad parcum, si volueruint, faciendum. Et Cruchiam et salinarum de Wichio et ecclisiam de Coderuggia cum omnibus pertinentiis suis. Concedo etiam et hac præsenti carta mea confirmo, ut eædem sanctimoniales de Westwude habeant et teneant omnia hæc prædicta, et omnia alia quæ adhuc adipisci poterint in perpetuam elemosinam, cum omnibus pertinentiis suis. Quare volo &c. T.T. cancellario, et Ricardo de Lucy, et Manas Biset dapifero, et Bernardo de S Walerico, et Willielmo de Bello-campo, apud Wygorniam.
  5. "The Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey", Shropshire Archaelogical Society, 1985, entry 252 reads:
    Coderugge. Donacio eiusdem.
    [Precis:] Osbert son of Hugh grants to Matilda daughter of John Poer for the service of ¼ knight the village of Little Cotheridge (Worcs) except for ½ hide belonging to Hugh de Say. If she has an heir by Osbert or by a future husband, her descendants may hold the land by hereditary right; if not, she shall hold it for life. He also grants her the land which Wm of Overtune once held, this she may bequeath to whom she wishes, to be held from Osbert for an annual rent of one sore sparrowhawk or 2s. (before 1186)
    Sciant tam presentes quam futuri quod ego Osbertus filius Hugonis concessione et assensu Hugonis de Say fratris et heredis mei dedi et concessi et hac mea carta confirmavi Maltildi (sic) filie Johannis Puheri pro suo servicio villam que vocatur Hugelmeston et alio nomine parva Coderugga cum omnibus pertinentiis suis et liberatibus in bosco et plano in pratis et pascuis in viis et semitis in aquis at molendinis sibi et heredibus suis tenendam de me et heredibus meis ita libere et quiete sicut ego ipse eam unquam melius tenui fasciendo quartam partam servicii unius militis pro eadem terram. Istam predictam terram dedi si integre preter dimidiam hidam quam Hugo de Say frater meus habet in Hugelmestun illam scilicet quam Orni tenet pro qua faciet regale servicium simul cum predicto menerio. Similiter dedi ei et concessi et hac ipsa carta confirmavi terram quam Willelmus de Overtune quandam tenuit cum omnibus pertinetiis suis in bosco et plano in pratis et pascuis ey in omnibusliberis consuetudinibus tali pacto et conditione quod si habuit heredem de me aut de viro sibi dispnsato teneat predictam villam sibi Hugelmestune et alio nomine parvam Coderuggam ipsam et heredes sui in perpetuam hereditatem eodem servicio et eadem libertate ut supradictum est. Et terram videlicet predicti Willelmi teneat in vita sua et post obitum eius1 redeat ad heredes meos. Et si illa non habuit heredem de me aut de viro sibi desponsato teneat predicta terras in vita sua et post obitum eius redeat parva Coderugga ad heredes meos. Et terra quam predictus Willelmus tenuit remaneat cuicumque ipsa voluerit in perpetuam hereditatem tenendam de me et heredibus meis libere et quiete ut supradictum est reddendo annautim unum sprevarium sorum vel duos solidos pre eadam terra ad festum sancti Petri quod dicitur ad vincula. Hiis testibus Hugone de Say, etc.2
      Dudmaston MS. f.19r-v
      1. meum.
      2. add. witnesses: Johanne de Frusselu, Waltero de Poremort, Rogero le Puher, Willelmo fratre eius, Roberto Estun, Willelmo Carbunel, Petro de Greote, Willelmo de Wicentune, Roberto de Wiard, Petro de Wetemore, Ricardo capellano, Waltero diacano, Galfrido clerico, Rogero clerico, Rogero de Pantesbir', Thoma fratre euis, Galfrido Clavingo, Waltero de Mulestune, Roberto de Cliftune, Ricardo de Pultrebeche.
      Date: before Osbert fitz Hugh's death (Pipe R. 32 Hen II, p31) but not many years earlier. John le Poer belonged to the family which held a knight's fee of the bishop of Hereford in Bishopstone (no 254; "The Red Book" ... of the Hereford Bishopric Estates (Camden 3rd ser. xii; Misc XV) p2; cf. "Red Book of the Exchequer", Rolls series, i. 278, 604) and was still alive in 1190 (Pipe R. 2 Ric I, 48).
      Osbert fitz Hugh held a hide in Cotheridge of the bishop of Worcester (Red Book of Worcester(Worcs Hist Soc 1934-50), p57), which is referred to both as Little Cotheridge and Howelineston (ibid 40, 437). The latter is the modern village of Howson which must have formed part of Little Cotheridge (VCH Worcester, iv, 256n)
      Matilda does not seem to have had any issue as Howson was held by Osbert fitz Hugh's descendants in the 13th century (Red Book, p40). William of Overtune's land she gave to Haughmond (no 254)
  6. "The Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey", Shropshire Archaelogical Society, 1985, entry 253 reads:
    Confirmacio eiusdem.
    [Precis:] Hugh de Say confirms no 252. (1186-1190)
    Sciant tam presentes quam futuri quad ego Hugo de Say concessi et hac mea carta confirmavi donacionem quam dominus et frater meus Osbertus filius Hugonis dedit Matildi (sic) filie Johannis Puheri pro servicio suo in terra de Hugelmeston' et in terra quam Willelmus de Overtune tenuit eodem modo et eodem pacto et eodem servicio sicut carta prediciti fratris mei demonstrat et testatur. Et pro granto meo debit michi unum anulum aureum cum turcasio in aula Burefordie. Hiis testibus Johanne Fruisselu, Rogero le Puher, Willelmo fratre eius etc.1
      Dudmaston MS. f.19v
      1. Additional witnesses: Roberto Estun, Willelmo Carbonel, Waltero Poremort, Petro Greote, Roberto Wiard, Ricardo capellano, Rogero de Pantebir'.
      Date: probably between Osbert fitz Hugh's death and Hugh de Say's (Pipe R. 2 Ric I, p48)
  7. See his father's page.
  8. "The Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey", Shropshire Archaelogical Society, 1985, entry 919 reads:
    Pro molendino ibidem.
    [Precis:] Hugh de Say and his wife Lucy grant Rochford mill. (1186-90)
    Notum sit omnibus tam presentibus quam futuris quod ego Hugo de Say et Lucia uxor mea filia Walteri de Clifforde filii Ricardi filii Puncii dedimus et concessimis et hac presenti carta nostre confirm [vimus] deo et ecclisie sancte Johannis evangeliste de Haghmon' et canonicis ibidem deo servientibus pro salute anime nostre et pro animabus omnium antecessorum nostrorum molendinum de Racheforde1 cum molta et secta auxilis et peracionibus et omnibus pertinentiis suis in terris in pratis in pascuis et in aquis ita [f.170v] liberum et quietum ab omni seculari servicio et consuetudine et exaccione sicut aliquis antecessorum nostrorum illud melius et plenius lel quietius tenuit. Hiis testibus Waltero Juniore de Clifford, Ricardo de Clifford' fratre eius.2
      Dudmaston MS. f.19
      1. Recheford.
      2. Additional witnesses: Rogero de Solers, Gilberto Giffard, Willelmo Carbonell, Achille de Beche, Magistro Rogero frate eius, Henrico de Haya et Ricardo de Haya, Ricardo et [T]homa capellanis, Waltero Clerico, Hugone de Say, Hugone de Katiford, Waleramio
      Date: while Hugh de Say I held the barony of Richard's Castle (Pipe R. 32 Hen II, p31; 2 Ric I, p48)
  9. "The Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey", Shropshire Archaelogical Society, 1985, entry 921 reads:
    Confirmacio eiusdem.
    Wal. de Clifford, son of Wal, son of Ric, son of Punc, confirms the gift of Rochford (Racheford)1 mill made by his lord Hugh de Sai and his sister Lucy, wife of Hugh. Hiis testibus Hug' de Say, Ricard de Clifford'2 (c. 1186-90).
      Original S.R.O. 322/8
      Dudmaston MS. f.21v
      1. Rechesford
      2. Gives additional witnesses: Gilberto Giffard, Willelmo Carbonello, Achille de Beche, Rogero fratre euis, Jer de baia et Ricardo de Haia, Ricardo Capellano et Alio Ricardo Capellano, Thoma Capellano, Waltero Clerico, Hugone de Say, Hugone de Katford.
      Date: soon after no 919 certainly before Hugh de Say I's death (no 254n)
  10. "The Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey", Shropshire Archaelogical Society, 1985, entry 1299 reads:
    Confirmacio eiusdem.
    Hugh de Say confirms his bro Osbert's gifts of Wychbold mill and a virgate it Witebroc at Richard's Castle, which David held. Hiis testibus Waltero de Clifford et Ricardo fratre eius1 (1186-90).
      Dudmaston MS. f.18v
      1. Additional witnesses (ibid): Gilberto Giffard, Rogero de Solers, Willelmo Carbonal, Achill' et Rogero fratre eius, Ricardo Capellano, Thoma capellano, Waltero clerico, Hugh Kettford.
      Date: while Hugh de Say held Richard's Castle (no. 919n)
      Dudmaston MS. f.10: Hugh de Say II (1190-7) confirms the above gifts and Rochford mill; hiis tesibus Waltero de Clifford, Ricardo fratre eius, Thoma capellano, Ricardo sacredote, Simone sac' et Galfrido patre euis, Baldwino de Bullers.
  11. Complete Peerage, Volume 9, page 257, note i, states that Hugh and Lucy also had a daughter Lucy, and cites "Montacute Cart, Somerset Record Society, nos 35, 36". It also states that she was probably married to Thomas de Arden, citing "Rotuli litterarum clausarum", vol i, p261. I have not yet managed to check either of these sources.
  12. Complete Peerage, Volume 9, page 257, note i, states that Hugh was dead by Michaelmas 1190, and cites "Pipe Roll, 2 Ric I", page 46, which shows that he died owing £23 3s 4d.
  13. "The Cartulary of Worcester Cathederal Priory (Register I)", Darlington, Pipe Roll Society 1962-63, no. 189, is a record of Assize concerning a claim made by Hugh's grandaughter Margaret concerning the advowson of Dodderhill. It cites a number of earlier charters by her ancestors, in which her grandfather Hugh is descibed thus:
    ... quia idem Hugo obiit in guerra in Wallia.
    however, it could be in error, as her father, Hugh's son Hugh, is known to have been fighting, and losing, in Wales at around the time of his death about 6 years later.
  14. "The Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey", Shropshire Archaelogical Society, 1985, entry 254 reads:
    [Precis:] Matilda daughter of John le Poer, bequeaths to Haughmond the land which Wm. of Overton held in Cotheridge, should she die without issue. It will be held from Hugh son of Hugh de Say for an annual rent of 2s. or a sore sparrowhawk. (1190-97)
    Sciant omnes tam presentes quam futuri quod ego Matildis filia Johannis le Puher1 de Bispestune2 dedi et concessi in perpetuam elemosinam post mortem meam simul cum corpore meo terram qual Willelmus3 de Overtune quondam tenuit in Coderugge4 cum omnibus pertinentiis suis et libertatibus eidem terre pertinentibus in bosco et plano in pratis et pascuis in viis et semitis et aquis et in omnibus locis Deo et [f.49v] ecclise Sanctie Johannis Evangeliste de Haghmon' et canonicis ibidem deo servientibus si forte sine herede de viro michi desponsato obiero pro salute anime mee et domini Osberti filii Hugonis qui predictam terram michi donavit et omnium amicorum meorum tenendam de Hugone de Say filio Hugonis de Say et heredibus suis imperpetuum. Reddando5 annuatim eis duo solidos vel sprevarium sorum ad festum sancti Petri quod dicitur advinvulam. (Sealed) Hiis testibus Willelmo6 filio Alani, Johanne Extraneo, Radulpho Extraneo, 7 etc.
      Dudmaston MS. f.22v
      1. le Poer
      2. Bisspetun
      3. Guillelmus
      4. Coderuge
      5. reddendo
      6. Guillelmo
      7. Adds: Adam filio Neel, Hugone de Kedeford, Guidone de Saheburi, Rad' Cugun, Guillelmo Abbo
      Date: between Hugh de Say II's succession (Pipe R. Ric I, p48) and death (ibid 9 Ric I, p197)
    Cf. no 252
  15. "The Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey", Shropshire Archaelogical Society, 1985, entry 915 reads:
    Racheforde Donacio trium virgatarum terre, dimide nocate et xii nummatarum ibidem
    [Precis:] Lucy de Say, daughter of Wal. de Clifford I, grants 3 virgates, ½ noke and 12 pennyworth of land in Rocheford (Worcs.. In return the canons gave her the gold cup which Osbert son of Hugh gave them. (1190-97)
    Omnibus sancte matris ecclisie filiis ad quos presnes scriptum pervenerit Lucia de Say filia Walteri de Clifforde salutem. Noverit universitas vestra quod ego Lucia dedi et concessi et hac mea carta confirmavi concessione et assensu filii Hugonis de Say deo Sancte Maria et ecclisie sancti Johannis evangeliste de Haghmon et canonicis ibidem deo servientibus tres virgatas terre et dimidiam nocham et xii nummatas in villa de Recheforde cum omnibus pertinentiis suis in perpetuam elemosinam tenedas libere et quiete ab omni servicio et exaccione seculari in bosco in plano in pratis in pascius in viis in semitis in aquis in molendinis in omnibus locis cum liberis consuetudinibus predictas vero terras dedi eis pro salute anime mee et pro anima mariti mei et pro animabus omnium antecessorum meorum. De quibus terris Osbertus filius Osgodi tenuit tres nochas, Edricus Swiste dimidiam virgatam, Willelmus Swiste dimidiam virgatam, Rogerus filius Benedicti dimidiam virgatam, Ricardus filius Edeline dimidiam virgatam et dimidiam nocham, Jordanus filius Edeline unam nocham, Edidia vidua xii nummatas terre, Et quando feci donacionem istam de voluntate sua dederunt mihi canonici predicte ecclisie unam cuppam de auro quam Osbertus filius Hugonis dederat eis cuius precium erat iiii marcarum auri. Hiis testibus Hugone de Say, Waltero de Clifford', etc.
      Date: no. 254n
  16. "The Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey", Shropshire Archaelogical Society, 1985, entry 916 reads:
    Relaxacio pro hominibus ibidem et iiii partes terres in Esperfelde et vi d redditus ibidem
    Lucy de Say, daughter of Walter de Clifford, with the assent of her husband Bartholomew de Mortimer (Mortuo Mari), quitclaims her right to certain men who hold land from the canons of Rochford (Rechesforde), i.e. Rob son of Osgot, Radulf of Coppecumbe, Ric son of Edeline, Jordan his brother, and Adam son of John. They and all their children born after the land passed to the canons [f.170] shall remain with their free customs (liberis consuetudinibus) to the aforesaid canons. She also grants four parts of the land in Esperfelde which was the subject of a dispute with the canons and 6d rent which Radulf of Coppecumbe pays each year. For these concessions the canons gave her 20s. (Sealed) Hiis testibus Willelmo Carbonel, Roberto Wiarde, etc (early 13th cent)
      Date: after no 915 but before 1221 when Wm Carbonel was dead (Seld. Soc. lix, no 980)
  17. "The Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey", Shropshire Archaelogical Society, 1985, entry 920 reads:
    Confirmacio alia molendini et predictarum terrarum
    Ric., son of Hugh de Say, confirms nos 919 and 915 and grants that he and his heirs will acquit the canons' men of suit to the hundred and county courts (de sequela hundredi et comitatus acquietabimus). Hiis testibus Waltero de Clifforde, Gilberto de Say, Roberto Wyard, Johanne filio suo, etc.1
      Dudmaston MS. f.20
      1. Additional witnesses: Willelmo Carbonal, Johanne et Pagano filius suis, Osberto de Sutton, Galfrido de Bureford, Pirone de Recheford, Philippo Tirel.
      Date: between 1199 and 1221 when Wal. II was lord of the Clifford lands (Sanders, 35-6), probably before 1212, when Osbert de Sutton had been replaced by Wm. (Book of Fees, p145)
      Ric. was a younger son of Hugh de Say I and probably held Rochford (Eyton, iv, 308).
  18. "Domesday Desendants", K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, 2002, page 679, contains the following entry:
    de Sai, Hugo
    Son of Hugh fitz Osbern and Eustachia de Say, Hugh adopted his mother's surname during the long lifetime of his childless elder brother, Osbern fitz Hugh whom he succeeded in 1186, four years before his own death in 1190. He married Lucy, daughter of Walter I de Clifford, by whom he left a son Hugh (d. 1197).



Notes:


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