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Hugh de Say

circa 1155 - 1197

Father Hugh de Say
Mother Lucy de Clifford
Wife Mabel Marmion
Children Margaret, Lucy(?)


Hugh was probably born sometime around 1155 (1), the son of Hugh and Lucy (2)(3).

He married Mabel, the daughter of Robert Marmion (4)(11)(12)(16), and they had a daughter Margaret (5)(6), born sometime around 1190 (7). They may also have had a daughter named Lucy (14).

In 1196 he fought at the battle of Radnor against the Welsh prince Rhys (8). He may have survived this battle (10), but was dead by the following year (9)

His widow probably remarried a man called Reginald (13), and probably died sometime in or before 1210 (15), cetainly by 1215 (16).


Brief details of his children:



Sources:

  1. This is a rough estimate based on the known lineage between Richard Scrob and Margaret de Say. The succession of the intermediate generations is known, but the dates of birth are not. I have simply estimated the most likely rough dates of birth for these intermediate generations, using the few known dates of events in their lives as a guide. It is open to modification in the light of further evidence.
    Specifically in Hugh's case: His father was probably born somewhere around 1130, and his daughter around 1180, so I have simply estimated his birth to be approxmately central to these two dates.
  2. "The Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey", Shropshire Archaelogical Society, 1985, entry 254 reads:
    [Precis:] Matilda daughter of John le Poer, bequeaths to Haughmond the land which Wm. of Overton held in Cotheridge, should she die without issue. It will be held from Hugh son of Hugh de Say for an annual rent of 2s. or a sore sparrowhawk. (1190-97)
    Sciant omnes tam presentes quam futuri quod ego Matildis filia Johannis le Puher1 de Bispestune2 dedi et concessi in perpetuam elemosinam post mortem meam simul cum corpore meo terram qual Willelmus3 de Overtune quondam tenuit in Coderugge4 cum omnibus pertinentiis suis et libertatibus eidem terre pertinentibus in bosco et plano in pratis et pascuis in viis et semitis et aquis et in omnibus locis Deo et [f.49v] ecclise Sanctie Johannis Evangeliste de Haghmon' et canonicis ibidem deo servientibus si forte sine herede de viro michi desponsato obiero pro salute anime mee et domini Osberti filii Hugonis qui predictam terram michi donavit et omnium amicorum meorum tenendam de Hugone de Say filio Hugonis de Say et heredibus suis imperpetuum. Reddando5 annuatim eis duo solidos vel sprevarium sorum ad festum sancti Petri quod dicitur advinvulam. (Sealed) Hiis testibus Willelmo6 filio Alani, Johanne Extraneo, Radulpho Extraneo, 7 etc.
      Dudmaston MS. f.22v
      1. le Poer
      2. Bisspetun
      3. Guillelmus
      4. Coderuge
      5. reddendo
      6. Guillelmo
      7. Adds: Adam filio Neel, Hugone de Kedeford, Guidone de Saheburi, Rad' Cugun, Guillelmo Abbo
      Date: between Hugh de Say II's succession (Pipe R. Ric I, p48) and death (ibid 9 Ric I, p197)
    Cf. no 252
  3. "The Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey", Shropshire Archaelogical Society, 1985, entry 915 reads:
    Racheforde Donacio trium virgatarum terre, dimide nocate et xii nummatarum ibidem
    [Precis:] Lucy de Say, daughter of Wal. de Clifford I, grants 3 virgates, ½ noke and 12 pennyworth of land in Rocheford (Worcs). In return the canons gave her the gold cup which Osbert son of Hugh gave them. (1190-97)
    Omnibus sancte matris ecclisie filiis ad quos presnes scriptum pervenerit Lucia de Say filia Walteri de Clifforde salutem. Noverit universitas vestra quod ego Lucia dedi et concessi et hac mea carta confirmavi concessione et assensu filii Hugonis de Say deo Sancte Maria et ecclisie sancti Johannis evangeliste de Haghmon et canonicis ibidem deo servientibus tres virgatas terre et dimidiam nocham et xii nummatas in villa de Recheforde cum omnibus pertinentiis suis in perpetuam elemosinam tenedas libere et quiete ab omni servicio et exaccione seculari in bosco in plano in pratis in pascius in viis in semitis in aquis in molendinis in omnibus locis cum liberis consuetudinibus predictas vero terras dedi eis pro salute anime mee et pro anima mariti mei et pro animabus omnium antecessorum meorum. De quibus terris Osbertus filius Osgodi tenuit tres nochas, Edricus Swiste dimidiam virgatam, Willelmus Swiste dimidiam virgatam, Rogerus filius Benedicti dimidiam virgatam, Ricardus filius Edeline dimidiam virgatam et dimidiam nocham, Jordanus filius Edeline unam nocham, Edidia vidua xii nummatas terre, Et quando feci donacionem istam de voluntate sua dederunt mihi canonici predicte ecclisie unam cuppam de auro quam Osbertus filius Hugonis dederat eis cuius precium erat iiii marcarum auri. Hiis testibus Hugone de Say, Waltero de Clifford', etc.
      Date: no. 254n
  4. An entry in "Rotuli Curiĉ Regis", vol ii, p153, dated 1199, shows Mabel daughter of Robert Marmiun, as the late wife of Hugh, who was dead by then.
  5. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 310, Eyton cites an entry in the Pipe Rolls of 9 Richard I for Herefordshire, and states that :
    Hugh de Ferrars obtained the marriage of Margaret, daughter and heir of Hugh de Say, in 1197, by a fine of 300 marks, and Margaret was a minor at the time.
    Complete Peerage, Vol 9, page 258, note g, confirms this.
  6. Complete Peerage, Volume 9, page 258, note j states:
    Robert de Mortimer, son of Robert de Mortimer, for his soul and the sole of his wife Margaret de Say, daughter and heir of Hugh de Say, confirmed to [? Lanthony] Abbey the gift of Roger de Alfreton in Bilbury, which had been granted to Roger by Hugh de Say, lord of Castle Richard, son of Hugh de Say, and confirmed to him by Hugh de Ferriérs (Harl. MS. 6821, fos 101, 101d - a collection of papers formerly belonging to Gregry King, Rouge Dragon)
  7. See Margaret's page
  8. "Brut y Tywysogion" (Rolls Ser.), p. 243. states:
    "1196. The ensuing year the bishop of Bangor died. And then the lord Rhys collected an army, and attacked Caermarthen, and burned it to the earth, except the castle itself. From thence he marched with a vast array of his own men. and of the men of other lords, who were joined with him, to attack the castle of Colwyn, and compel it to surrender; and having obtained it, he burned it. And from thence he speedily marched with his army to Maes Hyvaidd, which he burned; and after burning it, on the same day, Roger Mortimer and Hugh de Say marshalled their armed forces of cavalry, equipped with mails and helmets and shields, unawares against the Welsh, in an adjoining valley. And when the magnanimous Rhys observed this, he accoutred himself, like a lion of furious heart, with a mighty band, and gallantly attacked his enemies, and turned them to flight, pursued them, and dealt with them as of no account, though in a manly way; so that the marchers regreted extremely the excessive slaughter of their men."
  9. He was still alive in 1196 (8), but was dead by the time Hugh de Ferrers obtained the marriage of his daughter Margaret in 1197 (5)
  10. "The Cartulary of Worcester Cathederal Priory (Register I)", Darlington, Pipe Roll Society 1962-63, no. 189, is a record of Assize concerning a claim made by Hugh's grandaughter Margaret concerning the advowson of Dodderhill. It cites a number of earlier charters by her ancestors, in which her grandfather Hugh is descibed thus:
    ... quia idem Hugo obiit in guerra in Wallia.
    however, it could be in error, as her father Hugh, son of her grandafther Hugh, is known to have been fighting, and losing, in Wales at around the time of his death about 6 years after her grandfather's.
  11. "Curia Regis Rolls of the reigns of Richard I and John", 1922, page 36, states:
    [1198] Wigorn' - Hugo de Ferrariis ponit loco suo Philippum de Grete versus Mabillam que fuit uxor Hugonis de Say de placito dotis ad lucrandum vel perdendum.
  12. "Curia Regis Rolls of the reigns of Richard I and John", 1922, page 112, states:
    [1199] Wigorn' - Mabillia que fuit uxor Hugonis de Say ponit loco suo Robertum de Langed' versus Hugonem de Ferraris de particione dotis ad lucrandum vel perdendum.
  13. "Curia Regis Rolls of the reigns of Richard I and John", 1922, page 413, states:
    [1200] Wigorn' Salop' - Mabilla de say ponit loco suo Reginaldum virum suum versus Hugonem de Ferrariis de placito dotis etc.
    Whilst there is no guarantee that this is the same Mabel, now remarried to Reginald, the mention of Hugh de Ferrars (then married to Margaret, Hugh de Say & Mabel's daughter (7)) makes it very likely. cf (11) & (12)
  14. Complete Peerage, Volume 9, page 261 note a states:
    "... there is an ambiguous entry on the Close Roll of an order, 20 Oct 1204, to the sheriff of Somerset which suggests that Margaret may have had an elder sister Lucy who, possibly on account of idiotcy or for some other cause, was excluded from the inhertience : Precipimus tibi quod facias habere Wo de Cantilupo seisinam manerii de Gifle [Yeovil] ... quod fuit Luce de Say aine fil' [sic] Hugonis de Say que est in custodia tua" (R. Lit Calus, vol i, p 12)
  15. "Complete Peerage" Volume 9, page 258, note i, claims that Mabel was dead by 1210, as her dower was returned to the family estate by then, and cites "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Volume 1, 1108-1272", entry 481. This entry is actually an extract from the Pipe Rolls [12 John, Rot 15, dorso] and reads:
    [1210-11] Worcestershire:- William de Cantelu (Adam Ruffus for him) renders his account; Thomas of Galloway owes 940 marks for having Hugh de Sai's land. Account of the issues of Thomas of Galoway's land, except growing corn and chattels (catalla); the Sheriff accounts for 18s of the fixed rent of Codregge from Michaelmas last year; and of £4 4s 8½d of the rent of the said vill for a year; and of £5 11s 3½d of pleas and profits of said manor, and £2 5s of the fixed rents of Wicheholde from Michaelmas last year; and £9 14s 10d of the rent of said vill for a year; and £2 9s 6d of pleas and profits of the same manor; and 19s of the fixed rent of Hamme from Michaelmas last year; £2 8s 1d of the rent thereof for a year; and 9s 4d of the pleas and profits of the said vill; total £28 19s 9d. Has delivered it in thirteen tallages to the Treasury; and is quit.
    This only proves that Mabel's dower had been returned if it can be shown that she held these manors (or a part of them) as her dower. An entry in "Rotuli Curiĉ Regis", Volume 2, page 153, shows that she held two of them in 1 John (1199/1200), after her husband's death, so whilst not absolute proof of her death by Michaelmas 1210, it seems very likely.
  16. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 313, Eyton cites an entry in the close rolls (Rotuli litterarum clausarum, Vol I, 240) and states that :
    "On December 3 1215, Robert de Mortimer has restitution of the land of Berewic in Sussex which, having been the property of Mabel de Say, mother of Mortimer's wife, was now in the hand of Robert Marmion Senior"



Notes:


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