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Margaret de Say

circa 1180 - 1230

Father Hugh de Say
Mother Mabel Marmion
1st Husband Hugh de Ferrers
2nd Husband Robert de Mortimer
3rd Husband William de Stuteville
Children Geoffrey, Hugh, Robert


Margaret was born around 1180 (1), the daughter of Hugh de Say (3)(18)(11) and his wife Mabel (13). She is not thought to have had any siblings (or at least none who survived until her fathers death, in about 1197 (21)), but there is a suggestion that she could possibly have had an elder sister called Lucy (2).

She married Hugh de Ferrars in about 1197 (3), and they had a son Geoffrey soon afterwards (24). Hugh died in 1204 (4).

In 1205, the king gave Margaret to Thomas de Galwey (5), but they seemingly never married. as Thomas de Galwey was involved in a dispute with the king. Two years later, in 1207, the dispute seems to have been resolved, and Margaret was once again due to marry Thomas (7). The marriage doesn't appear to have ever taken place though, and eventually Robert de Mortimer paid the king a 1000 mark fine to marry her in 1210 (8)(10), shortly after her mother's death (22).

In 1212, she held a number of manors in Worcester, along with her husband Robert (9)

In the summer of 1215, she had to take legal action to get hold of parts her inheritence (12).

She was widowed for a second time when Robert de Mortimer died shortly before July 3rd 1219 (14). Two days later she paid homage to the king and took possession of her inheritence from the Barony of Burford (15).

Just four months later, in November 1219, she was given the king's blessing to marry for a third time, to William de Stuteville (16).

William confirmed her, and her ancestors', gifts, to the Priory of Westwood (23).

Margaret had a child or children with William (19), probably including a son Robert (17). She died in 1230 (18). William survived until 1259 (20).


Brief details of her children:



Sources:

  1. It has been claimed that she was a minor in 1207(6), putting her birth in the late 1180s at the earliest. However I believe she was actually born about 1180. This is based on:
  2. Complete Peerage, Volume 9, page 261 note a states:
    "... there is an ambiguous entry on the Close Roll of an order, 20 Oct 1204, to the sheriff of Somerset which suggests that Margaret may have had an elder sister Lucy who, possibly on account of idiotcy of for some other cause, was excluded from the inhertience : Precipimus tibi quod facias habere Wo de Cantilupo seisinam manerii de Gifle [Yeovil] ... quod fuit Luce de Say aine fil' [sic] Hugonis de Say que est in custodia tua" (R. Lit Calus, vol i, p 12)
  3. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 310, Eyton cites an entry in the Pipe Rolls of 9 Richard I for Herefordshire, and states that :
    Hugh de Ferrars obtained the marriage of Margaret, daughter and heir of Hugh de Say, in 1197, by a fine of 300 marks, and Margaret was a minor at the time.
    Complete Peerage, Vol 9, page 258, note g, confirms this.
  4. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, pages 310/311, Eyton citing 2 entries in the close rolls (Rotuli litterarum clausarum, Vol I, 5) and in the patent rolls (Rotuli litterarum patentium, p45) states that :
    "...two writs-close, dated August 15 and 25, 1204, order the Sheriffs of Shropshire, Herefordshire, and Worcestershire, to give to William de Cantilupe possession of such lands as had been Hugh de Ferrars' in right of Margaret his wife. Cantilupe was to hold them during the king's pleasure. Margaret de Say still remained a child though a widow."
  5. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 311, Eyton cites an entry in the close rolls (Rotuli litterarum clausarum, Vol I, 56, 57) and states that :
    "... on November 8 [1205, the king] informs the Sheriffs of Shropshire, Herefordshire, and Worcestershire, that he has given the wife of Hugh de Ferrers to Thomas de Galwey, who is immediately to have seisin of all lands which the said Hugh held in right of his said wife"
  6. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 11, page 344, Eyton, claims, while discussing Stapelton Castle that Margaret de Say was a minor on 30th June 1207. In support of this claim, he refers back to his Volume 4, page 311. Here he mentions a document of that date which concerns Stapelton Castle (but doesn't mention her minority), and cites an entry in "Rotuli litterarum patentium", 73 b. The transcript which "Rotuli litterarum patentium" provides is an exact copy of the rolls, including the archaic abbreviations of the Latin, and whilst I can understand enough of it to confirm that there is an entry which, as Eyton states, concerns Thomas de Galway and his holdings which include Stapelton Castle, I can't decipher its complete meaning. However it doesn't seem to me that Margaret's minority is explicitly mentioned.
  7. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 311, Eyton cites an entry in fine rolls (Rotuli de oblatis et finibus, pp407-8) and states that :
    "Thomas de Galwey seems to have recovered his position by a Fine of 1000 marks, proffered about September 1207 'that he might have the land of Hugh de Say'. He was to pay 30 marks at the present Term of Michaelmas, 30 marks at Easter following, and at a higher rate annually afterwards, when he should have had to wife the daughter and heir of the said Hugh de Say."
    A transcript of the entry in the fine rolls can be found in "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Volume 1, 1108-1272", entry 405. It reads:
    [Aug-Sept 1407] Worcester:- Thomas de Gaweia (Galloway) gives 1000 marks to have Hugh de Say's land, for which he ought to pay 60 marks, viz, at this Michaelmas exchequer, 30 marks, and at the Easter exchequer, 30 marks, and at the Easter exchequer next following, 30 marks. And when he shall have the daughter and heiress of said Hugh, he shall pay annually more of said fine, as fixed (per consideracionem) by the Constable of Chester, Thomas Despenser, and Robert de Burgate, till the 1000 marks are fully paid. William de Cantilupe the sheriff is commanded to take security and such pledges for the money as he shall see fit, and then give Thomas seizin.
  8. Complete Peerage, Volume 9, page 260 note m states:
    ... Robert de Mortimer, who at Mich of that year [1210] accounted for 1,000 marks for having to wife Margaret, daughter and heir of Hugh de Say, with all her inheritence, to be paid 400 marks per annum (Pipe Roll 56, post Worcs)
  9. "The book of Fees, commonly called Testa de Nevill, Part I, 1198-1242", 1920, page 140, has the following entry, dated 1212, sub Worcestershire :
    Robertus de' Mortuo Mari tenet Tametebir', Cliftun, Sapy, Cura, Iadefen, Sheldesleg', Sutton, et Stanfort per servicium iiijor militum et quinte partis unius militis de dono domini regis cum filia et herede Hugonis de Say.
  10. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 313, Eyton cites an entry in "Fines" (presumably "Rotuli de Oblatis et Finibus"), page 473 and states that :
    About July 1213 Robert de Mortimer proffers "to serve the King for a year with nine other knights, and at his own cost, if he may be quit of the debt which he owes the King for his fine for having his wife"
  11. Complete Peerage, Volume 9, page 258, note j states:
    Robert de Mortimer, son of Robert de Mortimer, for his soul and the sole of his wife Margaret de Say, daughter and heir of Hugh de Say, confirmed to [? Lanthony] Abbey the gift of Roger de Alfreton in Bilbury, which had been granted to Roger by Hugh de Say, lord of Castle Richard, son of Hugh de Say, and confirmed to him by Hugh de Ferriérs (Harl. MS. 6821, fos 101, 101d - a collection of papers formerly belonging to Gregry King, Rouge Dragon)
  12. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 313, Eyton cites an entry in "Patents" (presumably "Rotuli litterarum patentium"), page 181 and states that :
    July 30 1215, Margaret de Say, in presence of the King at Brug, names Robert de Mortimer her husband as her Attorney to sue Gilbert de Say and all others against whom she wished to proceed in obtaining her inheritence"
  13. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 313, Eyton cites an entry in the close rolls (Rotuli litterarum clausarum, Vol I, 240) and states that :
    "On December 3 1215, Robert de Mortimer has restitution of the land of Berewic in Sussex which, having been the property of Mabel de Say, mother of Mortimer's wife, was now in the hand of Robert Marmion Senior"
  14. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 314, Eyton cites an entry in "Fines" (presumably "Rotuli de Oblatis et Finibus"), page 473 and states that :
    On July 3 1219, the King ordered the sheriff of Essex to assign to Margaret de Say, widow of Robert de Mortimer, dower in such lands in Essex as were of the inheritence of her late husband
  15. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 314, Eyton cites an entry in the close rolls (Rotuli litterarum clausarum, Vol I, 394-5) and states that :
    "On July 5 1219, the King took the homage of Margaret de Say at Gloucester, and ordered the Sheriffs of Herefordshire, Northamptonshire, Worcestershire, Berkshire, Gloucestershire, Shropshire, Warwickshire and Oxfordshire to give her seisin of Richard's Castle and all other lands of her inheritence. She was also to have all arrears of scutages which her Tenants should have paid, in the first instance, to Hugh de Ferrers, her former husband, and which the King had since ordered to be paid to Robert de Mortimer in his time"
  16. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 314, Eyton cites an entry in the close rolls (Rotuli litterarum clausarum, Vol I, 407) that reads:
    "The King to Margery, formerly wife of Robert de Mortimer, greeting. - Know that it is well pleasing to us if at the same time it be a matter of complacence to you, that you take our faithful and beloved William de Stutevill for your husband, and to this we give our assent. At Westminster, - on the fifth of November [1219]"
  17. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls preserved in the Public Record Office, Henry III, 1258-1266", 1910, page 215, lists:
    June 20 1262. Pardon to Robert de Stoteville son of William de Stoteville for the death of John Holle of Radenouere, killed some time ago in the march of Wales.
  18. "Annales de Wigornia", page 422, from "Annales Monastici", volume 4 (in the account of 1230) lists a number of deaths during the year, the last of which is Margerie de Say
    The transcriber has noted that she was the daughter of Hugh de Say and widow of Robert Mortimer, citing "Registrum" page 94, but its not clear which published register is being referred to.
  19. In his "Antiquities of Shropshire", Volume 4, page 316, Eyton cites an entry in "Placita, Mich Tm. 26 Hen III, m6 dorso" and states :
    "In Michaelmas Term 1242, Margery de Say being apparently dead, Hugh de Mortimer, her son and heir, was suing William de Stuteville for waste. The first move in this litigation failed for want of form, and the Plaintiff had leave to prosecute in some other mode. It appeared that Stuteville had had issue by Margery de Say, and so held the Barony by Courtesy of England"
  20. "Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other analogous documents preserved in the Public Record Office, Vol II, Henry III", entry no. 439, states:
    WILLIAM DE STUTEVILLE alias DE STOTEVILLE, DE STOTEWILL
    Writ to the sheriff of Worcester, 20 May, 43 Hen III. Inq undated.
          Sir Hugh de Mortuo Mari, aged 40, son of Margery sometime the wife of the said William, is his heir.
    WORCESTER. Wychebaud manor, held of the king, of the inheritence of Margery sometime his wife, by the courtesy of England, service unspecified.
          Coderugge manor, similarly held.
          Huweleston township, held of the bishop of Worcester, service unspecified.
    Writ to the sheriff of Salop, 20 May, 43 Hen III. Inq undated.
    SALOP. Bureford manor, held (of the king?) of the inhertience of Marjory sometime his wife, by the courtesy of England, service unspecified.
          Wulfreton manor with the free Hay, similarly held.
          Stepelton manor with Wylileg' Welshry, similarly held.
                                                                                                    C. Hen. III. File 22 (14)

    A more detailed extraction of the IPM for his Worcestershire lands from "The Inquisitiones Post Mortem for the County of Worcester, Part I", J.W. Willis Bund, 1894, page 4, states:
    WILLIAM DE STUTEVILL,
    WYCHBOLD COTHERIDGE.
          Inquisition made by the oath of William Corbet, Baldwin de Romely, Thomas de Stokes, John de Modnirum [Monteviron] William Aleyn, William de Loges, Robert Wyard, Roger de Wasseburne, John Clyfard, John de Meus, William de Hanleg' [Hanley] Robert de Astwode, and Henry de Peremort, who say that William de Scoteville [Stutevill] held no lands of the king in the county of Worcester of his own inheritance, but of the inheritance of Margery, his wife, he held, by the law of England, of the king, the manor of Wycheband [Wychbold], worth by the year £15 5s, and the manor of Coderingge [Cotheridge], worth £11 10s by the year; and he held of the Bishop of Worcester in the said county the township of Hulkeleston, worth by the year £10. Sir Hugh de Mortuo Mari [Mortimer], son of the said Margery, is next heir of the said Margery, and is of full age.
    .       Writ dated 20 May, 43 Hen. III. [A.D. 1259].
          Inq. p.m., 43 Hen. III, No. 23.
  21. See her father's page
  22. "Complete Peerage" Volume 9, page 258, note i, claims that Mabel was dead by 1210, as her dower was returned to the family estate by then, and cites "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Volume 1, 1108-1272", entry 481. This entry is actually an extract from the Pipe Rolls [12 John, Rot 15, dorso] and reads:
    [1210-11] Worcestershire:- William de Cantelu (Adam Ruffus for him) renders his account; Thomas of Galloway owes 940 marks for having Hugh de Sai's land. Account of the issues of Thomas of Galoway's land, except growing corn and chattels (catalla); the Sheriff accounts for 18s of the fixed rent of Codregge from Michaelmas last year; and of £4 4s 8½d of the rent of the said vill for a year; and of £5 11s 3½d of pleas and profits of said manor, and £2 5s of the fixed rents of Wicheholde from Michaelmas last year; and £9 14s 10d of the rent of said vill for a year; and £2 9s 6d of pleas and profits of the same manor; and 19s of the fixed rent of Hamme from Michaelmas last year; £2 8s 1d of the rent thereof for a year; and 9s 4d of the pleas and profits of the said vill; total £28 19s 9d. Has delivered it in thirteen tallages to the Treasury; and is quit.
    This only proves that Mabel's dower had been returned if it can be shown that she held these manors (or a part of them) as her dower. An entry in "Rotuli Curiæ Regis", Volume 2, page 153, shows that she held two of them in 1 John (1199/1200), after her husband's death, so whilst not absolute proof of her death by Michaelmas 1210, it seems very likely.
  23. Dugdale's "Monasticon", volume 6, page 1006, num XVI, sub Priory of Westwood, conatins an entry which reads:
    Carta Willelmi de Stuteville, de Bosco de Westwood et Terris Monialibus de Westwood concessis.
    Universis Christi fidelibus præsens scriptumvisuris vel audituris, Willielmus de Stutevilla salutem in Domino, Noverit universitas vestra me vidisse et audivisse cartam bonæ memoriæ Osberti filll Hugonis fundatoris ecclisiæ beatæ Mariæ de Westwood, et monialium ibidem Deo servientium, quam fecit dictae ecclisiæ et dictus monialibus, de bosco e Westwood et terris circa boscum, cum omnibus pertinentiis, in pratis, pascuis, et pasturis, et alli; et de terra de ......struch, cum omnibus suis pertinentiis, sine ullo retenemento; et cartas Hugonis de Say, Roberti scilicet de Mortuo Mari et Margaret de Say, antecessorum meorum, quas fecerunt dictæ ecclisiæ et monialibus, secundum tenorem cartæ prædicti Osberti filii Hugonis, in puram et perpetuam elemosinam. Ego autem dictas cartas et quicquid in eis continetur stabilitum habens et ratum, et pro salute animæ meæ et pro salute animæ Margaretæ prius dictæ, quondam uxoris meæ, præsenti scripto confirmavi in puram et perpetuam elemosinam Et quicquid ad me vel ad successores meos pertinet vel pertinere poterit in dicto bosco de Westwood, et hominibus dictarum monialium, in omnibus et de omnibus, quietum clamavi in perpetuum. In hujus rei testimonium præsenti scripto sigillum meum apposui. His testibus &c.
  24. A grant dating the early 13th century apparently shows Margaret, and her husband Robert, granting the lease of the mill at Cotheridge to Geoffrey her son (25). The idenities of the couple involved are not absolutely certain. Robert's name is abbreviated, and looks like mert' mar', and whilst Margaret's father's name looks like Hugh de Say to me, the transcript/translation provided to me (done by someone with far superior Latin paleography skills to me) notes uncertainty about whether it could be Lay.
    However, given that Margaret brought the manor of Cotheridge to their marriage, I believe that is her that is named in this grant.
    Robert died in 1219 (14), making this the latest that the grant can date from. Given that Geoffrey was an adult at the time of the grant he must have been born immediately after Margarets marriage to Hugh de Ferrars in 1197.
  25. Grant in Worcestershire Record Office, Ref: 705/380/2309/60/xvii.
    Catalogue entry reads:
    [early 13th cent]
    Gift from Robert le Mere' and Margaret his wife to Geoffrey their son, of a mill in Cotheridge.
    Transcript/rough translation provided to me by Vanda Bartoszuk of Worcestershire Archaeology Service reads:
    Sciaire presentes et futuri quod Robertus de Merc’ [could be Mort? As in mortuo] mar’ [?mari] Et Margarita uxor mea filia Hugonis de Lay/Say concessimus et hac presenti carta nostra confirmavimus Gaufredo filio sue’ molendinum nostrum de Coderugg . Tenendum et habendum libere et quiete de nobis et heredibus nostris quamdiu vixete (?) pro XL solidis annuatim reddendis pro dicto servictio et exactione, unde prius nisi XXXII solidos reddere solebat. Sol[verit] X solidos ad festum Sancti Michaelis et X solidos ad festum Sancti Andree et X solidos ad annunciationem Sancte Marie et X solidos ad festum Sancti Johannis Baptiste. Et post obitum predicti Gaufredi molendinum nostrum in manum nostram pervenit. Pro hoc autem concessione et confirmatione dedit predictus Gaufridus XL solidos mihi Roberto et vi [gratia?] Margarete uxoris mee. Et ego predictus Robertus et Margareta uxor mea et heredes nostri predicto Gaufrido iam dictum molendinum per predictum redditum quamdiu [vixere?] warantizabimus. Et ut hec concessio et confirmatio firma et stabilis perseveret munimine singillorum nostrorum confirmamus et corroboramus, his testibus. Ada filio Nigelli, Ada Waleris’, Hugone fiio Ricardi, Ada [Calmeratio], Hugone filio Rogerio Wab’eo de Coderung(?), Ricardo de Chadeslee, Ricardo filio [? Ormi]’, Johanni Carbu’nel’, Henrico de begecote. Et multis aliis.
    Know all men present and future that Robertus de Merc’ [? Mert/Mort] Mar’ [?could be Mari] and Margarita my wife, daughter of Hugo de Lay/Say, concede and by this present charter confirm to Gaufredus [her son] our mill at Coderugg , to have and to hold freely and peacefully from us and our heirs as long as he shall live, for 40 shillings a year rendered for this service, where previously he was accustomed to pay only 32 shillings. [He shall pay] 10 shillings at Michaelmas, 10 at the feast of St Andrew, 10 at the annunciation of the Blessed Mary and 10 shillings at the feast of St John the Baptist. And after the death of the said Gaufredus our mill shall return to our hands. For this grant and confirmation the said Gaufredus gives 40 shillings to me, Robert and [on behalf of?] Margarita my wife. And I the said Robert and Margarita my wife and our heirs guarantee the said mill to the said Gaufridus for the said rent as long as he shall live. And so that this grant and confirmation shall continue firm and stable, we confirm and corroborate it by attaching our seals, before these witnesses [ 9 names] and many others.



Notes:


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